Lalit Bhasin, one of the icons of the legal profession, in conversation with Cyril Shroff, Managing Partner, Cyril Amarchand Mangaldas.
Transcripted by Purnima Arora
Dr Lalit Bhasin needs no introduction; he has been around for over six decades in the profession and leads the Bar in many ways, so he would be sharing with us his journey and his views on a number of issues.
Cyril Shroff: Let me first start with you a little bit on a personal note. You really had a phenomenal journey as a lawyer. Even though I have completed 41 years, which is a long period, but when I hear that you have completed 62 years in the profession, that just puts things in a little perspective for me and you are still at it. Having completed 62 years in the field, you have worn several hats – Lawyer, Managing Partner, Arbitrator, the Institution-builder, the President of SILF, Former President of the International Bar Association, and so many others. So, when you look back at your journey and your contributions to the Indian legal profession, what are some of your reflections and some of the moments that stand out for you?
Lalit Bhasin: Cyril, thank you for giving me this opportunity of sharing my lifespan of 62 years in the profession. I started my law practice in 1962 after doing my law from the Delhi University. I started as a struggling lawyer appearing in the District Courts and the Labour Courts and all that, and gradually I shifted to the High Court.
The first professional break came for me in the year 1965-66, when I was asked by the Legend in the field of Hospitality Industry, Rai Bahadur M S Oberoi, that if I could help them in drafting the service conditions of the Oberoi’s. At that time, InterContinental in New Delhi was just getting finishing touches, and I readily agreed to do that. Therefore, that was my first introduction in the corporate world of India, by being consulted by one of the topmost hotel chains at that time, along with the Taj Group, another hospitality leader.
In 1970, I set up my law firm in New Delhi. In those times, it was not in vogue to have Law Firms, but considering the names that Amarchand Mangaldas had made in Mumbai and other places, along with some other law firms like Crawford Bayley, Little & Co., and Orr, Dignam & Co., as also J B Dadachanji. In fact, J B Dadachanji was one of the first law firms along with Anand Dasgupta and Sagar, and of course, Singhania & Co. Mine was the fourth or the fifth Law Firm that was set up, and after that there was no turning back, so far as my professional career is concerned.
The year 1973 was where, you may call, the role of my serving the profession started, when I was elected as the Chairman of the Bar Council of Delhi, a position I held for four years from 1973 to 1977. I think I was the only Chairman of the Bar Council to have held this position for four years, because after me, every year there have been rotations – one year, two years, four years.
I have inherited my values from my grandfather and father who were lawyers. My grandfather was a freedom fighter, who died as a result of a lathi blow by the British Police in 1946. He was a lawyer, but gave up his law practice and became a part of the Congress Party engaged in the Freedom struggle. My father was a rebel lawyer who appeared for Sheikh Abdullah when he was imprisoned, then Bakshi Gulam Muhammad, and then against Pratap Singh Kairon, who was the Chief Minister of Punjab. So, he was always representing the rebel causes.
Money making was not in our family; it was doing service, paying back to the society the way you can, and to the country. So, when I became the Chairman of the Bar Council, I initiated two very important moves to help my fellow legal professionals.
I, myself, was only about 11 years in the profession, a struggling lawyer. I asked Raj Kapoor, the famous filmmaker, to give me a premier show of his blockbuster movie Bobby in 1973-74, because I wanted to raise some funds for the Bar Council. Raj Kapoor very graciously agreed to do so when he came to know about my noble motive. In fact, he brought the entire cast of the film, to Regal Theatre in Delhi, and we were able to raise about five lakh rupees at that time, which may be more than even five crore rupees these days. And a partial sum so raised was spent on setting up a Reference Library in the only District Court at that time, the Tis Hazari Court, which was inaugurated by no less a person than the President of India, in the presence of the Honourable Judges of the High Court, the Chief Justices, and the then Law Minister Mr Gokhale. The Library was essentially for junior members of the Bar who did not have enough money to buy books, and it is still being used as a Reference Library, so that is like a permanent contribution.
Secondly, I set up a Fund which is called the Disabled and Indigent Lawyers Fund. There are many practitioners in the District Courts, Labour Courts, and other courts, who cannot afford the medical expenses if they meet with some accident or in the event of their death, the family is left unsupported. Therefore, this Fund was set up for the first time in India by the Bar Council, and that has continued even till now.
In the 1980s, I started my association with the international bodies of legal professions, like the Commonwealth Law Association. Their first Conference was held in India at the Ashoka Hotel. Mr R K P Shankardass, who eventually became the President of the International Bar Association also, the only one from India, he and I worked together to have that Conference in the year 1980-81, which was inaugurated by the then Prime Minister Mrs. Indira Gandhi, and then we became very active. So far as the International Bar Association (IBA) is concerned, I was taken as the Council Member. I set up the Committee on Legal Aid; I said that legal aid should not just be a lip service, we should be doing real good legal aid service, particularly in the developing countries. At that time, India was still a developing country. And then, I also became the Chairperson of their Human Rights Committee. So, all this started.
I became the Deputy Secretary General of the IBA, and eventually in the year 1997, we held the first International Conference in India, where nearly 3,000 foreign lawyers participated. Now, that was an achievement by our Team to showcase India’s legal profession, and that also marked the inauguration of the famous India Habitat Centre (IHC), because it was the first event which was held at the IHC, inaugurated by the President of India. So, I virtually introduced the IBA to the Indian legal profession, since I was chairing that very crucially important Conference, and it also coincided with the opening of the Indian economy at that time, in the late 1990s, which has, of course, carried on till now, in the 2024. Our economy has not looked back; rather the growth has been accelerated during the last 10-15 years.
It was very important to showcase the Indian legal profession because so many other law firms had come up. We saw the growth in the number of law firms from just five or six in the major cities like Mumbai or Kolkata or Chennai, and hardly three or four in Delhi, in the mid-1990s to 2005-06; law firms with good resources, with good knowledge of technology, and comparatively led by young people. It was very important to show it to the world that Indian lawyers, and particularly the law firms, were second to none, and they could compare favourably with their counterparts in the other parts of the world. So, all this happened during that period.
At the same time, I became the General Secretary of the Bar Association of India in 1990, and Mr Fali Nariman, whom I consider as my mentor, was elected as the President. So, the two of us formed a team till 2010, for nearly 20 years, and we really brought back to life the Bar Association of India, which had virtually gone into the background. Under the able leadership of Fali Nariman, the Bar Association of India came to be recognized as one of the foremost champions of Liberties of Rights and Human Rights, and also for the young professionals in the country.
I witnessed this growth in the legal profession, by strengthening and promoting the respective bodies, both international as well as domestic, but at the same time I did not neglect my profession.
I became an advisor to various groups/business houses like Birlas, Hindujas, Reliance, and other groups. I was also on the Board of Accenture and Microsoft, and all. Since 1980, we have been handling Air India’s work. At that time, there were two Airlines – Air India and Indian Airlines. We became the lawyers even for the Ministry of Civil Aviation. We have been the lawyers of Air India, and we still continue to do their legal work.
The year 2000 is a landmark, a milestone for me. So far as my professional growth is concerned, my contribution to the legal profession is setting up of the Society of Indian Law Firms (SILF). I did not join the SILF; rather we set it up, along with some other very eminent names. Apart from your good self as Amarchand Mangaldas, we had Late Rajiv Luthra, Rohit Kochhar, Ravi Nath, Ranji Dua, and D C Singhania. The five-six of us met, and we decided to form the Society of Indian Law Firms, which was inaugurated by the then President of the International Bar Association, Dianna Kemp from Bermuda. She was theperson to inaugurate along with our friend Mr. Arun Jaitley, who was the Minister of State for Law and Justice at that point of time. The SILF has grown to be a very formidable institution in the sense that it is recognized now all over the world and also by our own Parliament, by our own Judiciary, by the Executive – the Ministry, as they consult us.
As you are aware, because you are a very important part of the SILF, that it represents a brilliant Think Tank consisting of nearly 130 top law firms spread all over the country. SILF has really done pioneering work so far as providing economic support to the governments, to the industrialists, to the Chambers of Commerce, because without legal support, you cannot achieve anything. There cannot be protocols; there cannot be conventions; there cannot be bilateral agreements; there cannot be mergers and acquisitions, amalgamations; nothing can happen without the legal support. So, that is the role which our SILF members, and particularly such leading firms as yourself, and some other eminent members, have been providing to boost the economic growth of our country, and the legal profession has played a very important role in this regard.
Cyril Shroff: As you were speaking, what struck me, and stood out, was the fact that your career and your life is almost synonymous with the growth of the legal profession in the post-Independent India. I mean you are there from literally some of the initial days, and are still going strong today. And the other thing which stood out for me was that you have always spent a disproportionate amount of your time on building institutions. So, while you have done great things on the professional side personally, your legacy will really be of making institutions, whether it’s the SILF or the Bar Association or so many others. So, my question to you is what is it about your personality and your journey that makes you such a terrific institution-builder?
Lalit Bhasin: When I started as an institution-builder, my whole aim, as I said, because of the legacy that I had inherited from my father and grandfather, was of giving it to the country, and to the society. Since the country was already independent at that point of time, there was no question of any freedom struggle. But one could really do something so far as the legal profession was concerned, so my sincere attempt has always been, since the last 50 years or so, right from the time when I became the Chairman of the Bar Council, to somehow create such conditions that our young professionals have a bright future; they have a good legal education which was the requirement of the time.
But building of institutions came along; I never aspired to be a leader in that sense. I always considered myself as a professional to help other colleagues in the profession, and things came by. As they say, things kept on happening. One of the milestones that I have achieved was when I was elected as the President of the Inter-Pacific Bar Association (IPBA) which is one of the most powerful institutions in the Asia-Pacific region, right up to the American West Coast. I never aspired to become the President of the IPBA, or the President of the Bar Association of India, much less the President of the Society of Indian Law Firms, particularly when there were so many other eminent and distinguished leaders in the law firms. But somehow, I was asked to take the lead, so I took it as a responsibility. And if it is a responsibility, it has to be fulfilled to its fullest extent; that has been like my mission.
With that purpose, I decided that it is high time that an organization like the SILF should also have its own premises. It could not just continue to function from the office of the President, or of the other members, so we decided to go ahead. Mr Arun Jaitley helped us a lot in getting this plot of land in the institutional area. This was blessed by the then Prime Minister Shri Atal Bihari Vajpayee ji, when he recognized SILF’s contribution, and handed over an award to me, for what he called was “Outstanding Service to the Legal Profession”.
So, these are like milestones which came by, possibly because people realize that something good is happening for the profession, particularly for the law firms and the young members. And what helped us was our vibrant democracy, and the rule of law. We, as lawyers, are committed to the rule of law, whether we practice in the courts or we work as law firms; we promote and strengthen the rule of law, and we provide this legal support to the government, so that has also helped in promoting.
The other thing which inspired me was that good law schools are the basic foundation for any good lawyer, and India was really lacking in good legal institutions providing quality education at that time. So, that has changed now, as now there are so many very good law schools. We have the National Law Schools. Even the private sector is playing a big role; we have Universities like Symbiosis, Amity, GD Goenka, and so many other good institutions which are deemed universities, and they are all doing a great job.
So, in the field of education also, I feel that we were able to do our bit. SILF members visit these law schools, and share what is happening contemporaneously in the world, with not only the students but also the faculty members, who need to be informed about the progress that law is making.
Cyril Shroff: What are your views on the state of the legal profession today, and what opportunities exist for young lawyers, like there are hundreds of thousands of lawyers coming out of law schools every year as well? How should they be looking at the profession, and how should they be thinking of building their careers? How would you define the state of play in 2024?
Lalit Bhasin: When I started my profession in 1962, it was still considered as a profession. Over a period of time, and possibly due to development at the international level, the profession is being converted into a business, which is not a correct thing to do. Our founding fathers of the Independence movement, whether it was the Father of the Nation, or the first Prime Minister, or the first President, or the first Home Minister, or Dr B R Ambedkar, they all belonged to this profession. Even today, whether we talk about the present government or the previous governments, we have had leading lights of the profession give up their lucrative practices to serve the country, to the best of their knowledge. So, that professional link has been maintained.
But at the practitioners’ level, I think we are converting into a business, and that is where technology has also played a good role in the sense that having websites and all.
Cyril Shroff: I can just give a counterpoint of view – as India is globalizing, as the economy is expanding, and the international professional community is also looking very keenly at India, is this not bound to happen that you need large organizations; you need large law firms running into hundreds of lawyers and at one level how do you avoid it becoming like a business? It is a profession and I think the ethics should be of a profession. But how can you fight the tendency of such large organizations to become like a business? Is that even possible?
Lalit Bhasin: Yes, it is possible, because whether you have ten lawyers or you have 100 lawyers, if those lawyers are committed to keep this as a profession, then it can be done, and it has been done in India. For instance, such big law firms as yours, or Shardul’s, or Nishith Desai, or Zia Modi, and such others. They have all kept the basic principle in mind, and will always be upholding ethical traditions. They have not converted the profession into a business.
Whereas in some foreign jurisdictions, lawyers are forming even the corporate bodies; companies which are listed also, and investments are made by non- lawyers in those companies. That is what makes it a business. We are not there yet, and I am against that. We should not be something like those institutions which are functioning now in the UK and Australia and some other jurisdictions. So, we have to be careful about it. Let us keep it a profession, and not make it like a business, as has been done in other jurisdictions.
What can be done is use of technology. It is imperative because we have to do a lot of research. Suppose, I want something on natural justice; so I immediately go to the equipment, and I get all the case law and all that. So, as a research tool, technology is very important. It does help the profession. It also helps the Judiciary. But that is where the role of technology should stop. It should only function as a facilitator, and the use of technology should not be there so far as decision-making is concerned.
Cyril Shroff: But now the gene is out of the bottle. The number of tools that you’ve mentioned, which are more or less like search engines, have been around for a few years. But the threshold that we are sitting on today, as a profession, not just in India, but globally, is that of the arrival of generative AI and ChatGPT and whatever, and I think we are still at the early stages of that. The possibilities are enormous; the free text search and the free language search through which you can actually post problems and get answers is mindboggling. So, what in your opinion do you see as a threat from generative AI to our profession; and of course, this question is being attempted to be answered in some form or the other across the world. But what are your thoughts?
Lalit Bhasin: My thoughts are that technology ought to be used, firstly, to reduce the cost of litigation, by online filings and all that, because that has really helped in facilitating particularly those litigants who cannot afford paying hefty fees for typing or cyclostyling, and making hundreds of copies of that. So, technology has to be used for that purpose. But what I am trying to impress upon is that we have seen not only in India but overseas also, that AI is being applied even for decision-making, even for judgments. That in my view is not acceptable, for the reason that no two cases are the same, and cases have to be decided on the basis of facts. Technology can be served as a tool for research and all that, but not for the purpose of basing your decisions.
Cyril Shroff: I completely agree with that. But at the same time, there are a lot of mundane types of disputes, small disputes, consumer disputes, where AI can play a role and bring down the arrears. You know very well that part of the cynicism that the general public has against the legal system is that it is too slow, and ‘Justice delayed is Justice denied’. So, may be we can think about a more creative way in which some of the used cases of generative AI can help solve the arrears problem, without it interfering with the mainstream litigation. So, this is a possibility.
Lalit Bhasin: I entirely agree that this is a possibility which should be explored, and it should be used, keeping in view that at present, as admitted by our Hon’ble Chief Justice of India and the Law Minister in the Parliament, more than five crore cases are pending. But, at the same time, we are facilitating filing of more and more cases. What about their disposal? That disposal is not coming the way it ought to have come.
When I started my practice, there was no pendency of cases. And today, we see five crore cases pending, and the number is increasing. I mean the estimate is that with the current strength, it will take 300 years to dispose of the arrears, which is staggering. So, something ought to be done, and if use of technology can help there, that needs to be done.
But that is my concern, can it help in reducing the number of cases; because in my view, it requires a change in the mindset. The government is the largest litigant for the last 50-60 years. If there is a change in the mindset of the government that they will not go up, just for the sake of ego, to challenge every decision which goes against them, that will help in reducing the arrears.
Cyril Shroff: If I can now shift gear a little bit, and for just a very brief chat because otherwise we can go on forever. It’s on opening up of the Legal market, that’s a topic that constantly gets discussed, and you are the kind of spokesman of the Indian Bar on that. What are your thoughts on the opening up of the profession?
Lalit Bhasin: You are right Cyril. I was considered as a face of opposing the entry of foreign law firms till the year 2013-14 because I wanted that our Indian law firms should be able to strengthen themselves in terms of technology, in terms of resources, and they should be able to compete favourably with the counterparts in the other countries. But, in 2014, we told the government, and that was an inter-ministerial group where I appeared as the President of SILF, that we were not opposed to the entry of foreign lawyers. That they should be allowed in a phased sequential manner, possibly following the Singaporean model. The government of that time – the Department of Commerce, agreed with that proposal. So, our stand at the moment is that we are not opposed to that; we would rather welcome a good healthy cooperation and competition with the Foreign Law Firms because that is going to be a good learning experience for us also and for them also, and also good for our young lawyers to learn the international practices and global contemporaneous developments which are taking place.
Cyril Shroff: Towards the end, I want to come to some light-hearted questions about you – about Lalit Bhasin, the person. So, when you were a young lawyer entering the practice, who was your role model?
Lalit Bhasin: As I said earlier, my role models were my father and my grandfather; I followed them. Although they were not in this corporate practice, they were my role models so far as the role of the profession is concerned. I followed them then, and I continue to follow them even now.
Cyril Shroff: You have travelled a lot. So, what is your favourite destination?
Lalit Bhasin: My favourite destination in India is virtually my homeland, Kashmir because even when we were in the erstwhile Pakistan, before 1947, we used to go to Kashmir where my great maternal grandfather was there. So, my first love in India is definitely Kashmir. And outside India – I have visited almost all parts of the world but if I need to pick one destination, it is Dubai. Dubai, also possibly because my daughter lives there.
Cyril Shroff: Where would you like to take me out for a meal in Delhi?
Lalit Bhasin: I don’t know if you are a vegetarian or a non-vegetarian. I am a non-vegetarian and I am supposed to be a very Foody person. My favourite food is, again as I said, Kashmiri food – what they call the Wazwan. There are some very good vegetarian dishes also which they have, like paneer and the haak saag , and the nadru. So, that is my favourite place and in Delhi we have two-three very good outlets where you get good non-vegetarian food.
Cyril Shroff: A good book that you’ve read recently?
Lalit Bhasin: I am very fond of Poetry, and all that. And the book which I have read recently is by Mehr Afshan Farooqi on “Ghalib”. I really love this, and on the other side, I’m also a fond reader of Jeffrey Archer’s “Turn A Blind Eye”. These two books I have read very recently, and I really love them.
Cyril Shroff: Now, the last question – a good movie that you wouldn’t mind rewatching today, across the last 50 years?
Lalit Bhasin: Keeping in view what is happening in India, that we are seeing a new transition from an underdeveloped to developing and now a developed country, I like the film ‘Naya Daur’, because ‘Naya Daur’ means a new era. It had Dilip Kumar, he is my favourite actor, and of course, we had Vaijanti Mala, and Ajit, so that remains my favourite movie. It was a fantastic movie, and the music was also amazing. And B R Chopra, he is a legend.
Cyril Shroff: Lalit ji, thank you for this fascinating interview. I learned so much about you. Though I’ve known you for so many years, there were so many parts about your career that I didn’t know, and I am pretty sure that there are a number of lawyers in the profession, young and old, who didn’t know that part about you either.
Lalit Bhasin: It was an accelerating experience for me to share my views with you.
